Church Hurt: Myths, Mistakes, and How We Handle the Struggle | S5 E23

Steve Alessi: 0:53

Hello, welcome to another episode of the family business with the Alessi's, and today you have Steve Alessi and Mary Alessi sitting in the podcast booth together, where we'll be talking about something we don't talk about on Sundays.

Mary Alessi: 1:07

This is a good one.

Steve Alessi: 1:09

.Would you like to greet everybody?

Mary Alessi: 1:10

Well, hello everyone. This is going to be a great topic.

Steve Alessi: 1:12

It is. Let's get into it. Yeah, big question. Okay, what's your newest challenge, biggest challenge, now that you have two grandkids one boy, one girl?

Mary Alessi: 1:21

Well, first of all, it's pretty amazing that we have two grandkids. When did that happen, Happened so fast? My biggest challenge would probably be knowing how much of myself to what's the word assert as mom, onto my kids and my in-law kids. Yeah, Assert insert as to my motherly knowledge, or to just back off and let them figure things out. So I'm just trying to find the balance of that because it's so hard. Instinctively you just want to go live with them And you won't let me, So Oh yeah. No, it is as funny as a grandparent You realize. yeah, having kids was meant for the young.

Steve Alessi: 2:05

It's a lot of work. We've actually had four babies around lately The new baby, Marino. Gianna, the one year old. She's awesome, My mom and your mom.

Mary Alessi: 2:16

Well, we've had. we've had a lot of care taken lately.

Steve Alessi: 2:18

That has been fun. My neck's killing me.

Mary Alessi: 2:21

I've got a lot of neck pain. I don't know why, but I think it's tension.

Steve Alessi: 2:25

Okay, so your question is Steve, what's your biggest?

Mary Alessi: 2:28

challenge Steve what is your biggest challenge now that you are a grand papa?

Steve Alessi: 2:33

Getting a picture on my phone, or I just noticed when I signed into my computer. I have a picture of you, me and Gianna, so now I got to get another one of you, me, Gianna and Marino. So it's, how do I get the little kid in here right away? We got to get pictures. That's my biggest challenge.

Mary Alessi: 2:50

We can do it today When we're done with the podcast, let's just go grab the kids and update everything.

Steve Alessi: 2:55

Life's good.

Mary Alessi: 2:56

Life's amazing Yes it is Okay.

Steve Alessi: 2:59

So let's get into this real deep, heavy subject.

Mary Alessi: 3:02

This is serious And this is church hurt.

Steve Alessi: 3:04

Yeah, church hurt, church hurt. It's a new term. It's a term that's been around probably the last five years or so, where we're seeing people use this. I want to say it's an excuse of why they don't go to church, while they're not committed to any spiritual leader in their life, and they use this term to give them a way out of having to do that. And they're saying I was hurt by the church And so now I don't have any involvement whatsoever with the church. Yeah, i love God, but I don't. I'm not committed to any church.

Mary Alessi: 3:50

Yeah, the church hurt me. So, peace out.

Steve Alessi: 3:52

Peace out. So we will do that in the church world. And now we want to shed some light on it from a pastoral perspective. This is our life, it's our ministry, it's what we've been called to, it's our business.

Mary Alessi: 4:09

Well, we're both second and third generation pastoring, so we understand from every angle what happens at home with pastors, what happens on the job with staff. We know everything pastors go through because both our parents were frontline pastors in the day where it was really hard, when there was more shepherd hurt than there was church hurt. And it was in the fifties and the sixties when our parents were coming up. Excuse me, in ministry there was a lot of gossiping Christians hard on pastors. You had to get voted in and voted out. So we were raised where we have a lot of insight. We got receipts on both sides.

Steve Alessi: 4:50

Yeah, those are called hirelings, where people hire you to go in pastor because a board runs the church, because they run the church. maybe the pastor aged out or the pastor had a moral failure, or the pastor didn't like the city. the pastor wanted to leave and the local church then was responsible for bringing in a new pastor. So they'd go through the whole process of interviewing and then the guy would have to go try out, preach for a weekend, be around for a week, get to know the people. So it became a puppet. The pastor was a puppet to what was going on. The people were leading the shepherd rather than the shepherd leading the sheep, and there was a lot of hurt on the pastor's side, which then, because of that many as mentioned in another podcast many of the children of the pastor were like man, i'm at a church too. Exactly Because they had church hurt. They had church hurt. Now it's you hear it from what the spiritual leader, the church leader or people in the church, not just the pastor, but people in the church the hurt that was put upon people. So they use that as okay, i was hurt by the church. now church hurts real and I'm not a Christian or I'm not going to church, So we got to talk about that because we have seen it from both ends. First off, i would say from the get go about this subject. it should be expected, because people want to make the church out to be a perfect church country club experience. Yeah but I'll tell you, you can go to some of the most exclusive country club environments. You can go to some of the best, most expensive getaway locations in the world and you can pay top dollar for it. But you can still get disappointed by somebody's lack of customer service, right? And you don't run around saying I got resort hurt, right, i got country club hurt.

Mary Alessi: 6:50

Or I got hurt at work. I got hurt at work, work hurt. So I'll never work again because I have work hurt And that's not diminishing people that do get hurt at church. But we have to get our processes right about that.

Steve Alessi: 7:01

Our perspective has to be right And the point that I was making was there's no perfect environment, ever anyway here on earth, that's right Heaven, a different story. Yes, we haven't been there yet, so we can't compare it to what we're going through now. But what we have to realize is the church environment, from the top all the way down to the bottom, whatever the bottom looks like, it's run by human beings And wherever you put two people together, there is the opportunity for people to get hurt. Yeah, absolutely So. It's to be expected, but it shouldn't be an excuse. It shouldn't drive people away from the church or from having a healthy relationship with a pastor, right, so let's not use it as an excuse. No, you can't. And let's then not run around and share all of our disappointments with people, whether it's a pastor running and saying I'll never go back to that church again because that church is this, this, this, this. You don't want to slam the church and you don't want to slam the pastor because something happened either through him or under his watch, and therefore you're running around gossiping not a good word gossiping and telling everybody how bad that pastor or that church is. Or go on Yelp or leave some goofy review out there. That's going to cause other people to stumble and fall when it comes to having a relationship with God or the local church.

Mary Alessi: 8:27

I think that is so important for everybody that wants to go to church and be involved in a church to have understanding. You are going to get hurt in any environment. You are going to be disappointed in any environment. No one's perfect, so go in with that on top of mind. Also, as a believer, as you grow in the Lord and your relationship with God, you need to know what the Bible says about what to expect. Number one the Bible says that we are to be it double honor to whom honor is due, that we are to be under the authority of leaders. But it also says that if you speak out against the man of God or the pastorate or the church, it'll bring a curse on your own life. So, talking about it to other people and damning a place you know, my father used to tell this story and it applies right now. He used to tell it that how we do as human beings, we go one time to the tomato stand And the tomato stand. We buy these beautiful tomatoes but at the bottom of the bundle they're rotten, and so we're so mad because we think the owner of this tomato stand put three perfect tomatoes on top of all these rotten ones and betrayed us. And here we left and went home and we got three good ones and five bad ones, but they are rotten. So you start talking bad about that tomato stand. I'll never go back to that tomato stand. And he would emphasize it, you know, and by the time he got to the end of the story you get the point By he would say this by the time you've cursed the tomato stand, you said you're never going back to the tomato stand. You tell all your friends, don't you go to that tomato stand. All you're gonna get is rotten tomatoes there. You've told your kids, you've told your grandkids that tomato stand is closed or it's been sold three times. It's not even the same owner or it's not even a tomato stand anymore. But yet you've held on to a bad experience that has poisoned people in your life and the actual experience itself has completely moved on and has been obliterated. It's not what it was. But yet you've held on to one singular bad experience And that's what we do And it's dangerous, not to that pastor or that church. It eventually affects us, it affects our children, it affects our children's children, because if we don't get that right, we pass on bad tomato stand, thinking church hurt to our grandchildren.

Steve Alessi: 10:44

I'm glad you say that because it was after Stephanie's rehearsal dinner, or Chris? no, yeah, it was Stephanie's rehearsal dinner or rehearsal. We wanted to go to dinner with our family and it was late at night. So we went over to a specific restaurant that happens to be Italian and they said to us they couldn't see this, they were closed at 10, we got there at 9.30, 9.45 and they said they couldn't see this because they closed at 10 and we're like but you're not closed yet, we're here early. They said no, our chefs and everything they got to be, we're gonna close at 10. So I was so bothered by that. We ended up going right next door to a restaurant that closed at 10, but they were willing to open the doors for us and make it all happen. So I was so mad at that experience that I went on and I gave a stupid review. Right, they replied please follow us, contact us because we'd like to make this right with you, and so on. Well, as I kept reading down some of the other reviews, there were a few bad reviews, quite a few bads, that had some of similar experience to me. That's two years ago. Yes, i'm telling Gabby, the other day I said you know, i think I'd like to go to that restaurant. I'm looking for a new Italian restaurant and you know, okay, i didn't have the best experience, but I'm interested in the food. Come on, the customer experience got in the way of the culinary experience. I'd like to try the food. How many times do we do that about church? I mean, there's a spiritual enrichment that comes from God through the church, through his pastors, that is set up. You can't do Christianity alone. You can't. No, you need the body of Christ, you need the church environment to help encourage you in your faith.

Mary Alessi: 12:27

Absolutely.

Steve Alessi: 12:28

So you're missing out on the culinary experience of God's word, all because the customer experience wasn't that good.

Mary Alessi: 12:34

Exactly.

Steve Alessi: 12:35

We gotta be careful about that.

Mary Alessi: 12:36

We do because pastors are learning. You know, sometimes I know, with us pastoring for as many years as we have and we had the benefit of having parents that we'd come off the platform and they would, right there, correct us or encourage us. Pastors don't always hear themselves And when you've got we're fortunate to have great loyal people around us We're very much fixate people If I've said something. you say something all the time from the platform which helps everybody give you extra grace. right, and you've said it since we started. Don't charge it to my heart, charge it to my head. You also say you might not like the management at our church, but you'll never have to question my morals. So, but not every pastor. there's young pastors out there. Not every pastor walks in that level of wisdom. So, as a sheep, which is what the Bible calls us as churchgoers, we have to look at every pastor and say is his heart right? Is there manipulation here? Is this causing me to just wanna serve man and not really serve the Lord? I mean, there's so many different aspects to that, but we gotta give pastors a little bit of a break here and give them some grace here, because some of the top leaders that have the most fame and notoriety have done it wrong and they have caused a lot of church hurt. And we can't just paint every pastor with that same brush. Pastors need grace too.

Steve Alessi: 13:57

Yeah, they do, and so that brings up this. There's shepherd responsibilities, but there are also sheep responsibilities, and this goes both ways. Church hurt could come from either the pastor or even people in the church all right, oh my gosh, yes. And you will throw away a beautiful experience with getting hurt. In any environment in the church like this, It's almost set up to be hurt. Yeah, Because there's another influence that is at work here, but the phrase that comes to mind is don't throw out the baby with the bath water Right Now. The Latin culture down here they may not understand that. Explain what that means real quick.

Mary Alessi: 14:36

So just because you're washing the baby in water and the water gets dirty from the baby, you don't just throw the whole thing out with the baby. The baby is the precious thing that you're endeared to, that you have the tremendous value in. You throw the dirty things out, you throw this stuff out that you don't need. You keep the precious thing, and so I think sometimes we do that. We get impulsive, we are emotional beings And we don't understand the precious thing that is working in us in our relationship with the Lord through growing at a local church, and we just throw the whole baby out with the bath water because we're mad at something the pastor said, or he overlooked me, or I didn't get chosen by the praise team, or I. I mean, it's not just the pastor, there's church hurt that can run down any myriad of departments. I mean I got ignored, they didn't even look at me and they leave. Oh, and all churches are that way. Well, that's a heart condition. You got to fix that in your heart because that's just wrong.

Steve Alessi: 15:30

Right? Well, think of this. Why is the bath water dirty? Yeah, it's because the baby was dirty and we clean the baby. Now the bathwater is dirty. So what do you do? You keep the clean baby, but you throw out the bathwater. Yeah, the thought is people will throw out the baby with the bathwater because both are dirty, right? No, we've just cleaned. When it comes to church, we we're working on cleaning ourselves up and sometimes it gets dirty. Sometimes it gets dirty in the process. And just because there's a leader involved, it doesn't mean the leader is Jesus, doesn't mean the leaders got absolutely. The leader is flawed as well. So the whole setup is Conducing to some measure of pain, because everybody along the way gets dirty and makes mistakes. Now, everybody, i'll say from my end, from a leader's perspective, if I could look people in the eye And speak to them just you know and just general thought of your past, if you've been hurt from a pastor, here's what I'd like you to hear We're sorry, yeah. From a pastor's perspective, yeah, i'm sorry. You were hurt by somebody who should not have hurt you. That's right. There's trust There. There is faith that you put in that individual. You trust them. They, the whole relationship, is one that's based on them being an example of God in your eyes. Right, not that they are God, but they are an example of what God should be like, what Jesus would be like here on the earth. And So, therefore, to all those who have been hurt From a pastor or spiritual leader, forgive us Absolutely. It's not what we signed up for. We want to bless you, we want to help you. So It was a mistake. It was a a bad choice of words or bad judgment. It was a flaw in our character that we're working on. It was a Moment of weakness where our flesh got the best of us right. But Please don't judge the rest of those in our ranks by that one mistake that We have made. The Carl Lynch's that have made the mistakes. Don't judge every pastor by the Carl Lynch's no, or the. Brian. Houston's right or anybody else that has been in the spotlight for making Bad judgment calls and mistakes. That's not who we are all of us. That's not who all of us are right. So forgive us for doing that. And The reason you need to forgive us is because unforgiveness is just as painful Yeah, too, in destructive to your life as what was the offense that somebody brought. Absolutely you forgive, not for yourself right. Excuse me to forgive, not for the other person you forgive for yourself. Yeah, you need to get your heart healed in this situation. So then I would say to you if you Finally can release that pastor, that leader, that person in the church From that hurt you, let it go. Then go look for another church environment. Don't keep removing yourself. Right, so cross the board. Leaders make mistakes and sometimes leaders hurt you, right. But I want us to go to the Bible for a minute. Just just a couple things. Imagine Peter and Jesus's relationship. If there is anybody that could have been hurt by their leader, it was Peter, absolutely Jesus. This perfect Lamma, god That's on the earth, turns and says to Peter get thee behind me, satan, yeah. Yeah, when's the last time your pastor called you the devil. You know sure He tells him you're gonna deny knowing me. No, i'm not gonna die knowing you. I'm with you, man, don't, don't. Don't point out, don't judge me, don't point out my sin. No, you're gonna deny knowing me. If there was somebody that could have been hurt by the spiritual leader, it would have been Peter. Yeah, but Peter had to Step up and look in the mirror and say you know what I Did? deny him, right, i had some mistakes too. I have. I have some flaws in me. I'm weak. I've got to be able to stand up because, listen, that's the same guy who was hurt by Jesus, who then Jesus turned and said to him listen, peter, i'm gonna build my church upon what is in you. That's a revelation, that's in you and the manhood man that you are. I'm gonna build my church upon that. And listen, the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church. So here's the thing that I want to encourage people to know, as you're listening to this. Here's another reason why there will be a setup for hurt in the church It's because the gates of hell are against the church. Yes, hell is Bombarding the church to destroy it right. And he would like. He, being the LD, i'll blow the devil himself Would like nothing more than that. Fine somebody to help him destroy the church. Yeah, and if you keep talking about your hurt in the church, Yeah you could help The enemy destroy the church, because people that you're talking to about your hurt.

Chris Alessi: 20:51

That's right.

Steve Alessi: 20:52

They pick up your offense against the pastor or your offense against the hurt, and it'll keep them from ever darkening the day Or the doors of a church. They won't go to church, right? So now you've just helped the enemy right Expose weaknesses that are just part of the humanity and part of life. That's right. And you don't want to be on that side of the fence, right? You're needed more than ever to be a cheerleader of the church, and if you were hurt by somebody in the church, then you should be the one that's out there saying, hey, yes, it happened, but here's how I got through it and why church is so important to me Cause the gates of hell are trying to destroy the church. You wanna help build the church.

Mary Alessi: 21:42

Absolutely. I love that It's. I think it's a test of every Christian, steve, every person that says I wanna attend a church, i wanna work out my salvation. I like this pastor and his wife. I wanna bring my family here. I wanna start growing in my faith. I wanna start serving. Get ready, because you will have to face the test of offense. Did I say that right? You will have to face the test. I said it okay, making sure I said it right. Sometimes you hear yourself talk whenever. Anyway, i think I said it right. Two grand babies got me a little twisted. You will have to pass that test. Offense is a test we all have to take. It's like our driver's license. You wanna drive this thing? you gotta take the driver's test, and offense is one of those tests you have to take. How do you respond? You know, we've watched the documentary recently of the whole carlints and the whole. We have our opinion on that right And I think it's more than just our opinion. We've balanced that against the word and also our own wisdom and what we know. And although I wanna stay mad at pastors who do dumb stuff and they love the limelight, it's hard for me as a sheep too, because I'm both. I get irritated at the sheep Because I think to myself where were you? What are you doing? Why are you sitting here needing affirmation so desperately from this person who just wants to be famous? Where's your discernment? Where's your calling it out? And as you get closer into that story, you see the people that were around him on the front lines begging him to get things right and eventually had to leave. That's how you handle it Now. They're hurting and they're broken, but yet they still love God They feel like a dream. Died for them, but now they're serving other areas. And, yes, they were hurt. They were the closest to him and he didn't wanna listen. And now one of the statements that I heard that one of the girls make that was so powerful. She said the gold and the garbage. Well, there's a lot of garbage in church hurt but there's some gold in there too. And the gold is who am I now? Do I have a greater sense of wisdom and discernment? because I had to pass a test. We said it a minute ago. Every pastor isn't looking to be famous. There's a lot of pastors out there that just wanna be good shepherds. Find one. Lock your family into a church. Don't paint every pastor in every church with the same brush because you've got hurt. You and I both could sit here and talk about our church hurt.

Steve Alessi: 24:11

Dear heavenly father, How did you pick up on that vibe man? I'm sitting here thinking it must be the smirk on my face because I'm going way back.

Mary Alessi: 24:18

Baby, I can read your mind, baby 35 years We could tell each other's stories of potential. The truth is, if church hurt eliminated you from wanting to go to church or being apart, we should be the biggest heathens There are, because we both have faced individually our church hurt and we have faced it together as a couple, and we've faced it on both sides of people that say horrible things about pastors, terrible things about us, And we know now we've survived it because we understand part of the role the calling is. We know people are talking about us over lunch on Sunday.

Steve Alessi: 24:56

We know this, even some of our friends, some of our friends.

Mary Alessi: 24:59

Did you hear what pastor said? Did you hear what he said? Oh my God, does he realize how egotistical he sounded? Yep, no, sometimes he does, sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes you're in bed at night going why did I say that You have transparency hangover the next day. But when people truly have the heart of God and they understand pastors are just human, then they give you a second chance and they have grace. Now that's what sheep should do as they grow in the Lord, and they should also see people and pastors that are screaming from the rooftops all the social injustices You know. Be aware of what they're saying and then what they're not saying, and try the spirits, as the Bible tells us to do, and when it's not kosher and it's not lining up, leave. Yeah, and I mean I have my judgmental take on why people don't, but That's another podcast Maybe. I don't know what time we're at, but I will throw it out here. I think there are so many young people in this next coming up generation that are falling into church hurt pits because they're choosing pastors that they need affirmation from, and they need it to the point of oh, you're a legend, bro, you're so gifted and they're killing themselves. They're falling all over themselves with the wrong intention and the wrong heart And they're doing it to serve. But who are you serving? the homeless people on the corner. We've talked about this before where you're gonna give out. You can't put your pastor under that. You can't need affirmation from him. You've gotta have a relationship with Jesus Christ where you know where your help comes from.

Steve Alessi: 26:32

Yeah, Mary, I love that. Some of that's just a big test for you too.

Mary Alessi: 26:38

It's part of the test.

Steve Alessi: 26:39

I'm amazed because when you were bringing up our own church heard it happened at such a formidable season of our lives. Yes, it did. When you and I announced my engagement to you before we were ever married, i already had an encounter with the organization.

Mary Alessi: 27:01

Oh my God, it was crushing.

Steve Alessi: 27:03

That I was credentialed by, licensed and ordained by them, to then have to be taken out of the pulpit for a full year, to be set on the sidelines, and it was something that happened and I've never talked about this. I don't put it out there, but that was when you and I were dating and you should have left me. I should have.

Mary Alessi: 27:26

But I am so glad I did not.

Steve Alessi: 27:27

No, you hung right in there with me. I learned a valuable lesson. I'm thankful. Well, so just on the pain aspect of it judged harshly, judged wrongly I was judged harshly and judged wrongly by this organization, set on the sideline for a little bit, had to go through all of their requirements. Kangaroo court, kangaroo court set up yeah, set up, because there was somebody involved that was jealous not even of me, of my father and coming against my father. So you and I walked through this at the same time we're walking through this, your mom and dad are having their marital challenges and your dad was so in the wrong, but the organization that was judging me was also. They judged me wrong and they judged him like he was right, but they were so wrong.

Mary Alessi: 28:19

And my grandfather remember that let's just keep throwing those cherries on top.

Steve Alessi: 28:23

So get this. They judged your grandfather and your dad like they were right. They sided with them and your dad and grandfather were totally wrong. They judged against me like I was wrong and I was totally in the right, absolutely.

Mary Alessi: 28:36

So we went through. They got it wrong. They got it wrong, so in the worst way, We didn't wanna be in the ministry.

Steve Alessi: 28:41

That was our chance. Right there we get out because these people in leadership hurt us, crushed us, crushed us.

Mary Alessi: 28:47

It was terrible.

Steve Alessi: 28:48

And we started our marriage on. We limped in ministry when we started our marriage, okay, but to me it was like here's what I thought when it was going through it, and it's so easy to say today, but I remember going through it then it was like wait a minute. If they didn't have ammunition they wouldn't have been able to shoot at me. I gave them the ammunition because in my youth I was a little too stupid and not smart enough to stay as far away from the line as possible, so I really, in the long run, i had to accept responsibility for it. All right, all that to say, years later, we would never have judged the church and our ministry and being called into the ministry or our relationship with God based on a few boneheads. That's right. Those men made decisions that, whatever, that's all they had to make, and they were flawed and they made some bad choices along the way. Their judgment was wrong, but you and I didn't take it out on God nor the church. No, we never did. And that's why we can sit here on this podcast and be able to say to people who are saying church heard is an issue which is keeping me out of church or out of a relationship with God. Don't go there. Don't let your heart or your mind or go there and it affect your relationship with a church. Like you said, if you're not happy, if there's an environment that can set you up to be hurt, maybe it's on you. Yes, maybe you're expecting something from that pastor or from that church that's unrealistic. That's right. Time is an amazing gift God wants to give you. It is You don't wanna just make a decision that's going to affect the rest of your life based on one event that happened at one moment or time in your life. No, you wanna make sure you're always making the right decision and the right choices, because that right choice is going to help you throughout the rest of your life. Yes, and down the road you're gonna sit back and say, man, yeah, i should have done that because I was so mad. But, jeez Mary, you and I even have to try to go deep and dig up some of the hurt memories.

Mary Alessi: 31:12

We do The memories of the hurt, but that's because, the grace of God, there was a season. It hurt really bad. We felt betrayal in the worst way. It just felt like the hits kept coming. But what we did was we rallied and we said, okay, god, this is not from you, this is man. And we don't have to dishonor man, we can to honor him. And we can still honor God and honor man at the same time by just saying not our circus, not our monkeys, we're out of here, we're not gonna be a part of this organization, but we aren't passing one little bit of bitterness or negative story onto our children, and we never did We waited until they got into their teens. And when we started telling our kids the story of what we went through in our early 20s, they were like write a book, make a movie. Are you kidding? We barely tapped into it in this podcast, the details are so deep. But we never passed that on because we understood what the enemy would like the most is to take our hurt in our offense it's temporary and drive a wedge between us and the Lord. That's permanent And we just we weren't gonna do that. We loved God more than we loved men. But you know, looking back on it it's sort of a badge of honor to some degree. It's part of our story. There's no pain in it. It doesn't hurt anymore. You almost feel bad for those guys that they judged us wrong.

Steve Alessi: 32:31

Some of them died at bad death. It was on them. A local guy that put it all together ended up blind and then died.

Mary Alessi: 32:38

I'm telling you, okay, the Italian news coming out, The cursing Hey before we go on from this.

Steve Alessi: 32:44

That was one moment that we had not to just stir up all the hurt of the past. But then, years later, we were sued as a church by that same organization.

Mary Alessi: 32:54

Oh my God, we yeah, people don't know, people will lawsuit, people don't know what?

Steve Alessi: 32:58

we went through That with my dad, mom, and we fought the battle. That's why I tell people sometimes I don't remember my 30s. Yeah, because in my 30s, between infertility, not being able to have a kid, between dealing with a lawsuit with the assemblies of God, between leaving then my dad and trying to come over and start our church, going through all that stuff, some issues, hey.

Mary Alessi: 33:21

You're still leaving out a whole lot of layers. There are, we just don't have time to talk about it. 10 years, it was hard.

Steve Alessi: 33:26

I can't remember my 30s from all of that stuff.

Mary Alessi: 33:28

No, it was. I mean, I completely. We both understand what church hurt, and having people that you admire spiritually in your lives, that you've looked up to, that you've wanted to be like this, is gonna make me cry, but that's cause I'm a grandma now. But when you look at some of those men that you went to Bible school to want to emulate, that were, in your mind, heroes of the faith, and they just lacked discernment, They lacked grace. There was no grace for you. I will say the best gift out of that was who it made you and me as pastors, Because we always back up and we go wait a minute. There's two sides And we love these people And we can't throw the baby out with the bathwater in reverse And we've got to give people opportunities. We are here to love people. If we're not about long suffering because that's something Jesus told us to be We must be long suffering. It's a gift to give that to someone. But we didn't experience long suffering. We experienced the acts. Somebody says something about you and you're a pastor, you're a pastor in training. You're out, buddy, you're out. Well, that could have easily broken our hearts because they didn't even realize how we saw them.

Steve Alessi: 34:54

Heroes.

Mary Alessi: 34:55

They were heroes of the faith, and so, from a church person's perspective, we've really tried over the years to do our very best And we're human too but to manage that like it's just precious glass.

Steve Alessi: 35:09

Yep, and it's probably what forged in me the mindset and leadership mindset of hey, we're not going to play in this thing. No, we're not going to hurt people, we're going to do it right. We may not be the biggest church, but we're the healthiest church.

Mary Alessi: 35:26

That's right.

Steve Alessi: 35:27

Our goal has always been let's be healthy, because when people walk through the doors, we want to make sure that the environment here is a healthy environment for them to grow in their faith, but also grow in relationship with one another. And if you're going to sit there and be a church, that's all about relationship. you better be balanced and keep things pure.

Mary Alessi: 35:47

That's right.

Steve Alessi: 35:48

Because you can't be hurting people, if you wanted to connect with them. So, hey, we've got some tears up in here today and share a lot that's in our heart And we just don't want you to be let down or disappointed or live a life of regret all because some kind of hurt happened in a church environment. There's good churches, metro, life is a great church And great pastors. Before you come connect and lock in. So thanks for joining us today in the podcast booth with Mary and I. It's been fun here at the family business with the Alesses.

Chris Alessi: 36:25

You've just enjoyed another episode of the Family Business Podcast with the Alesses and we can't thank you enough for being a part of our potty today. Now that you've learned more about us, here's how you can join in in the family business. First, make sure you're following our podcast right now and download this episode so you can hear it at any time. Second, think of someone you know that might need or enjoy this episode and share it with them. You'll be helping them and helping us to spread the word about the family business. Third, go to alessifamilybusinesscom and tap the ask the Alesses button. This is really cool. You can use it to record a voicemail comment or question and we can add your voice to our conversations. Finally, while you're on our page, tap the reviews tab and you'll see a link to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. We love reading your reviews and we might even share them on the show. Thanks again for joining us and we'll see you next time at the Family Business with the Alesses, because family is everybody's business.