United Against Hate: How To Have Tough Family Conversations About Antisemitism (w/ Rabbi Robyn Fisher) | S6 E38

Steve Alessi [00:00:00]:
I don't want there to be a rift or a break in relationship whatsoever because we had to work together. We're trying to do something for the common good of our city, our community. So that could have caused a domino effect that kept us on two different ends of that desk that we sit at in our board meeting, but it didn't. Hello and welcome to another edition of the Family Business podcast with the Alessis. I'm Steve Alessi. And today you're going to love this because I have a wonderful guest, a new friend that I have in the podcast booth with us, and our pawdience is going to love her. Her name is Rabbi Robin F. Fisher, rabbi over at Temple Beth, or right down the street from our Dateland campus in the south.

Steve Alessi [00:01:00]:
Welcome. Thanks for joining me today.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:01:02]:
Thank you for having me here.

Steve Alessi [00:01:04]:
Oh, my gosh.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:01:05]:
We're neighbors.

Steve Alessi [00:01:05]:
We are neighbors and new friends. I appreciate this. I was just telling my kids that you are the only one on our board, and I don't know, we got 20 something people on our board, but you're the only one. Somehow or other, we've got this connection, and you've been to both campuses. You were kind enough to be able to come over, see us down south where we first chatted, and then come up here and see in this particular campus. So I thank you for that because it's a give and take on this relationship.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:01:33]:
It's more than that. It's having relationship because we can't know each other. We can't learn from each other. We can't grow unless we get to know each other. And now we've had so many opportunities and we are just imagining the future and what else we can do together.

Steve Alessi [00:01:48]:
Where here we have a Christian and a Jew in a podcast booth. This is like a joke.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:01:53]:
I'm waiting for this punch line.

Steve Alessi [00:01:54]:
No, this is good. It's our second podcast that we're doing together. First one we did with community news and Farah Sachs did a great job with us, which was then what triggered what we're doing today, because we were talking about anti semitism, and that's not a joking matter. My heart for my jewish friends started back in Westchester. David Stein, not realizing the power of that relationship all these years later, taken our church to Israel a number of times. You're a rabbi right there in our community. You're experiencing the pushback of everything that's going on. The hate, this anti semitism.

Steve Alessi [00:02:34]:
Our board, Miami Dade County Interfaith Board that we're a part of, asked us to come together and create a campaign to be able to let people know that jewish hate is real. It's out there, and it's termed anti Semitism.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:02:57]:
Yeah. And more than that, I think that anti semitism is usually a bellwether for the temperature of a whole community of a nation. And that is usually the tipping point of a lot of hate, whether it's LGBTQ, whether it's women, whether it's asian. You know, we can go on and on that somehow over the centuries, the millennium, Jews have been that bellwether or anti Semitism has been for it.

Steve Alessi [00:03:28]:
Yeah.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:03:28]:
Which is a crazy thought.

Steve Alessi [00:03:31]:
Yeah. Well, you.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:03:32]:
Do I look any different than anybody else? You know? I don't know.

Steve Alessi [00:03:35]:
No. Well, and the Christians experience their own prejudice and hate and for standing on really comes down to a belief system with our christian brothers and sisters because we say that we embrace biblical values. Those biblical values do have a stance from our perspective on what a lifestyle of righteousness looks like and what a lifestyle of unrighteousness looks like. And when we teach that, some take that to mean and think that we are preaching or teaching hate, when really what it is is a understanding, a biblical understanding. So there's no outright hate towards any people group. When we look at our biblical principles, the difference with our jewish community is it's not so much a belief system that you are being hated for. It's who you are as people that you have enemies that want to literally push you into the sea, drown you out. That whole push you into sea, drown you out, do away with you.

Steve Alessi [00:04:43]:
Every last one of you on the planet. Planet's going to be a better place without Jews. That is hate.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:04:49]:
It's very much hate. And I wonder what is the source of that? Is it a mirror to what they're not doing? Because our, you know, we were talking about our ancient roots and our traditions and the values that are embedded in the Old Testament are things that we also are just trying to promote and to live out our lives and to make this world a better place. We talk about loving your neighbor. We talk about, you know, just lifting up the ten Commandments. And all of our 613 commandments are, for the most part, all focused on spreading love and compassion and correcting the injustices of the world. Unfortunately, we've been aligned with a lot of people who we thought were our partners in that quest to make the world a better place. And yet they don't see that when it comes to jews. And it became very clear after October 7 how we've been marginalized and pushed away from that narrative of caring for people who are being discriminated against.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:06:00]:
There's a different narrative when it comes to jewish people.

Steve Alessi [00:06:06]:
Even at the highest levels of government, we're seeing it, that there is such a hate towards our jewish friends. That's crazy. That's crazy. So we're talking about this. I think it's what connects us, quite frankly, because my route, my spiritual roots, and your spiritual roots started at the same place, at that mountain. Abraham. Father Abraham had many sons. Father Abraham.

Steve Alessi [00:06:39]:
Okay, we have that connection. And if we share the root, then the fruit should be similar. And I'm picking up on a similar fruit here with us.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:06:50]:
Listen, I have such incredible respect that you are walking the walk, that you recognize from our early connection to each other that there was an issue that needed addressing and that you didn't just say, oh, yeah, it needs addressing. You actually are making that happen. So kudos to you. We say in Hebrew, Kolakavod mean all the honor to you because you're a leader and you're showing others how to be a leader, too. And it all begins, as we've discussed over and over again, with educating people and recognizing, one, that there's a problem. Two, how are we educating our children and ourselves to have a greater awareness and sensitivity to the needs of people? And it's not just, by the way I wanted to, like, just if I can do with respect, correcting. It's not just because we have our roots and we were at Sinai. It's because we are all made in the image of God.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:07:48]:
Every person in this world is made as a child of the holy one, of the. Of our spiritual essence. And we were put on this, in this world to bring justice, to bring goodness, to bring love to the world together, not in spite of certain people and not to the denigration of another, but to lift them up.

Steve Alessi [00:08:17]:
So many things going through my mind, and I'm gonna forget half of them. You mentioned 613 laws. You mentioned our laws. Every law that was given was given so that people as a community would be able to function without overstepping boundaries. Most of those laws were for that. How am I going to treat my neighbor? So it's not just a matter of do's and don'ts. It's a matter of respectfully being able to survive and contribute to a society so that the society is better off. Now, you and I didn't start off necessarily on the right foot.

Steve Alessi [00:08:53]:
And you share with our last podcast that we did together. It was a joke. That I said made reference to finances and needing finances to be raised. And I said, come on, my jewish friends. And that didn't go over well at all with you. It was a matter of ignorance with a comment that was being made. It was a lack of knowledge on my part and immediately addressed that said, no, no, no, that's not what I'm meaning. I don't want there to be a rift or a break in relationship whatsoever.

Steve Alessi [00:09:32]:
Because we had to work together. We're trying to do something for the common good of our city, our community. So that could have caused a domino effect that kept us on two different ends of that desk that we sit at in our board meeting. But it didn't, thankfully. It allowed us to really come together.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:09:55]:
So it deepened more than just tolerate, but we grew in that relationship. And that's the beauty of it, right? That, yes, there are lots of conflicts. We can't even talk to our own family members, oftentimes people who, in our own political parties, there is such strife in the world. But if we can sit down and talk to each other and find the humanity in one another, to find our. What bonds us together, because there's going to be something. It's just about communicating and finding that relationship. It can actually be better than it was and deeper and more meaningful, but.

Steve Alessi [00:10:35]:
Without conversation, that's never going to happen. No, that's why we're in this booth. That's why we sat down with community news. That's why we're saying we want, as two religious leaders in our community that share different faiths but are similar. Okay? We want to figure out how we can have more dialogue to teach people how destructive this antisemitism is. It can't exist. If anything's going to be thrown into the sea, it needs to be this anti semitism. So I'm needing you to educate my christian followers that are part of my church, part of our family business is us doing ministry as a family.

Steve Alessi [00:11:23]:
Can you help me teach them? So tell us, what is anti semitism?

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:11:29]:
Wait, how much time do we have?

Steve Alessi [00:11:30]:
Right, I gotcha.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:11:32]:
Oh, goodness. It's very encompassing. So I'm not sure how much that we can educate in this moment, but maybe it'll be just the beginning of a conversation or series of conversations or program that we initiate together. We may have to talk about that.

Steve Alessi [00:11:48]:
Yes.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:11:49]:
So I'd say antisemitism is not like other forms of hatred, because even the most well meaning, well intentioned people who want to make sure that there are no injustices and people aren't hated, don't see it with regard to jewish people, for some reason, they are othered. There's an exception to it. We love everybody else. We want to fight for the underdog, except for when it comes to Jews. And that became very clear after October 7, as I mentioned before. And I'll give you a couple of examples, which we may not have thought about prior to this. On October 7, Hamas infiltrated Israel and slaughtered and sexually abused men, women, and children of all ages, from the elderly, our grandparents, to babies that were dismembered and sexually abused. All ages.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:12:57]:
There was not one word. The world was silent when it came to that incident. They pivoted instead and said that we were the aggressors for attacking and defending Israel. And there was no discussion. Not the women's groups who advocate sexual advocacy in terms of protecting women's rights and their bodies, not human rights groups where people were just innocent civilians were killed in the middle of the night in a festival with a concert, where young people were having the time of their lives, free living and nothing. Why? Instead, we were the aggressors. We're the colonizers. We are the ones that are the.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:13:58]:
The devil with horns.

Steve Alessi [00:14:01]:
Yeah.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:14:02]:
What's wrong with that picture? Any group, any liberal group, would have been up in arms about that. We do it for much lesser causes, and we ignore other areas in the world, too, by the way, Afghanistan. What about what United States did in slaughtering hundreds and thousands of people? But no, it's when the Jews are just defending their country and retaliating for what not Palestinians did, per se, but what Hamas did. A terrorist organization that is not synonymous or reflective of the goodwill of Muslims and the values that they also hold dear, just like Christians and jewish people, but of a radical, Iran based terrorist organization. But nothing.

Steve Alessi [00:15:02]:
And you still have hostages.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:15:06]:
Still we haven't heard from. And there's no discussion about. You know, it's all about when are we withdrawing from we, meaning Israel, withdrawing from Gaza, not about when Hamas returns the hostages and the bodies now that are mounting, then the fighting will end, but when we cease. Okay, so it's a double standard.

Steve Alessi [00:15:35]:
And the average person looks at this and they're listening to the news, and they're seeing these college campuses, these students, these professors that are wearing the palestinian garb, that are actually holding pro Hamas signs. They think there's power in numbers. So if there's so many people that are standing up for the Palestinians and even Hamas, then evidently they're right and something's wrong with the jewish state. This isn't just now that this has happened since October 7. This goes back for years, thousands of years.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:16:26]:
Well, it becomes latent at one point and then it kind of heightens. And then we can look to lots of different reasons why this has been flamed and we won't get into politics. But opening up that dialogue and enabling people to cross the line from free speech, I think, is a problem. We don't have unfettered free speech. As a parent, would you let your children say and do whatever they want? No. We live within boundaries. That's what our commandments do. It channels our base behavior and our language so that we can live together and not flame, violence and physical abuse and threatening behavior.

Steve Alessi [00:17:13]:
So I'm an older person, have wisdom, live some things.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:17:20]:
I think we're the same age. And I'm not saying that.

Steve Alessi [00:17:22]:
No, I'm not. Not me. I'm talking generalizing. A comment here. Ready? So I sit down at the table with my younger child, who is more caught up in getting their news from social media, getting their history from what's being advertised. Now, how do I, as a parent, as an older parent, have this conversation around the dinner table with my kids, a younger generation, to instruct them on what antisemitism is and why it's so devastating and hurtful and wrong?

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:18:02]:
I think we have to look at our sources because there is so much untruth out in the world that is being used as a propaganda piece to negate what is literally true. And so I think what happened with our healthy debates, there's no more situation where we're allowed to have disagree, but presenting truths on the table and say, let's just talk about this. I would say let's check our sources, making sure that we have the right factual information behind us and directing them to not believe everything that's on the Internet, to engage in a healthy intellectual conversation, trying to put yourself in the shoes of and, and understand the situation from both perspectives. I remember when I was in high school that I would engage in debate team and you had to take on a side. You were assigned aside and you have to take that on. Well, let's try that. You know what? If you try it from the perspective of another and do some investigating about what are the argumentations that we can present that are not being addressed or that maybe you're not seeing? Let's try that.

Steve Alessi [00:19:24]:
Yeah. And I think that's got to be an ongoing dialogue because one conversation does not change the mind of a person that we're trying to show truth to. We see that in just our line of profession, we teach and people know better. You think when they know better, they do better. But it's that consistent teaching and instructing that helps people. So it's not a one and done. I can't have one dialogue with my kids and think they got it right.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:19:56]:
No.

Steve Alessi [00:19:56]:
It's got to be a continuous no.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:19:57]:
And it can't be with a heightened tension either and temperature of a conversation. We're just having a conversation, and let's just talk about this. I think that's really important. I'm not attacking you. You can't attack me, because we're never going to get anywhere, and we have to be open. You know, in Judaism, there's a prayer. It's like one of the primary prayers that we say. It's the shema, and it's in the scroll of the mezuzah that we hang on our door.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:20:27]:
And the shema is listen. And oftentimes we hear, but we're not listening. Listening requires intention and thoughtfulness and not thinking about, oh, what's pastor Alessi saying? So that I can think about my next question or my next line of reasoning. I'm listening to you and hearing what you have to say in a very deep, visceral way. There's a big difference.

Steve Alessi [00:20:54]:
Big. Now we share our heritage of Christianity, and Judaism is shared. Go back to Father Abraham. Here's where we come from. We being Metrolife. Me as a pastor, scripture speaks about God saying to Abraham, I'll bless those who bless you. I'll curse those who curse you. We don't think that has changed one bit.

Steve Alessi [00:21:22]:
And we want to be on the right side of blessing. That's why we, as a church, do bless our jewish friends. I pray over you. I pray when I drive by going down to 87th Avenue, gonna go Walgreens, go to the falls. I pass by your place there, which I've loved for years, and I just extend my hand that way and just say, Father, bless em. Bless Rabbi Fisher, her husband, and her kids. I believe in a tangible blessing, and with that, a tangible blessing, I believe our church has experienced a tangible blessing. Just finished a remodel project, over $5 million, pretty much.

Steve Alessi [00:22:03]:
We're just shy about a million or so, but provisions coming in. It's been one of the most rewarding experiences for me to be a part of because my dad built that church with his hands. I was raised on that property. I swam in that pond in the back. So to see us be able to remodel it. That's a tangible blessing. I'm not sure I would have that if it wasn't for our posture towards our jewish friends. The other, just as tangible as that is, Rabbi, when he says, I'll curse those who curse you, that's tangible as well.

Steve Alessi [00:22:38]:
And we teach our people, we don't get on the side of that curse. We stay on the side of grace. And that side of grace is there's a blessing that comes for blessings. Our jewish friends raising our hands.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:22:53]:
Right? Do we know where that line is?

Steve Alessi [00:22:54]:
No. Raising our hand against our jewish friends is where I believe we step into that curse.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:23:03]:
Right. But there's ignorance. That's the part that you and I are working on educating, because I don't think that you intend to be on the side, not you use to be on the side of cursing.

Steve Alessi [00:23:15]:
Right.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:23:16]:
But if we don't walk the walk, and I think that prayer is so important and we don't know the power of it until we are in a position to actually be able to receive the prayers. But I think that prayer has to be coupled with action, that your prayers become much more meaningful and have much more teeth. When you can apply your prayers in the world in which we live, when we can do something to combat those curses of the world, those injustices like we're trying to do now, what are those next steps that will enable us to fend off those curses? That's what we have to talk about. Praying is important, but praying has to be coupled with hard, with behavior, behavioral change, behavioral, positive acts towards other people. You know, loving your neighbor. How do you love your neighbor if you don't know your neighbor?

Steve Alessi [00:24:27]:
Right. Right.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:24:28]:
We didn't know each other before, and I have such a deep respect for you and for the church and the community that you and your family have and are continuing to build. It's another world. Just like your community may not know me and what I'm trying to build, too, in terms of bringing love and compassion and justice to the world. But can you imagine together what we can do?

Steve Alessi [00:24:55]:
Yeah.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:24:56]:
With behavior, our prayers and our actions.

Steve Alessi [00:25:01]:
Yeah. Our thoughts, you know, and you and I don't have to agree on everything.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:25:06]:
No.

Steve Alessi [00:25:07]:
We have different viewpoints and opinions on things in society and culture. Politically, I'm sure we have differences of opinion. That's not wrong. Matter of fact, what I know about our two parties, politically, 80% is agreed upon in our two parties. Two different parties that are in our country today, they agree on 80%. Only 20% of things that they disagree on, and we major on that 20% rather than on the 80% that we agree on. I would rather look at you as an individual. I see that we have so much more in common than we do.

Steve Alessi [00:25:50]:
Not that a lot of what we don't share that we don't have in common probably is because environment, things that we saw, things that we experienced, things that affected us one way or the other from our past, that should never get in the way of the 80% that we have an agreement on. So from a Christian's perspective, as a religious leader, you know, we go to Israel. Last time we were there, my focus was on trying to show our people that were there with us, please look at Jesus, not from a christian perspective, because he wasn't a Christian, he was a jew. Look at the rabbi, because he taught as a rabbi, he learned as a rabbi, he taught as a rabbi, he was referred to as a rabbi. So my focus on our last trip was to make sure our church family knew we're following the footsteps of a rabbi and what he would have been taught, how he would have been treated and such. So, you know, when you and I talk on occasion, you'll mention rabbi so and so instructs this way. I have a rabbi.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:26:57]:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi [00:26:58]:
And our rabbi that I really has established my life on is Rabbi Jesus, Rabbi Christ. So those are things that we share together. And even though your rabbi is one rabbi, I have a different. We still have our faith that unites us together. And so from that standpoint, we're on the same page. And us sitting here talking this audience pawdience, hearing your heart helps open them up to. I believe in the partnership with God that says things to them that you or I cannot say to them. Through the leading of the spirit, God starts to speak to them as they're hearing it now.

Steve Alessi [00:27:41]:
And this, this podcast isn't just listened to by people that share my faith, but I do believe even as they hear this. And I'll tear up here in just a second because I really appreciate the peace of which we can have a dialogue and we can find agreement and we can embrace that agreement. I'm told to pray for the peace of Israel. And if I'm praying for the peace of Israel, I'm praying for the peace of my jewish friends so that they don't have to go through this hate and fear and second guessing who's with me, who's not worried that that look that they just received from somebody may be a look that is filled with hate and judgment and could cause them harm and pain. I don't want that for you. I don't want that for your community and your people. So we're starting a journey here. We're not sure where it's going to take us, but there's people that need to hear that this anti semitism, this hate towards our jewish friends is wrong and it's going to be destructive to their own life if they buy into it.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:28:55]:
We need more pastoral lessees in this world.

Steve Alessi [00:28:57]:
Oh, you're precious.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:29:00]:
I'm very touched by your emotions, your sensitivity, your prayers and your actions. I pray that your community can hear your words and feel the depth of your soul in ways that I am right now. I mean, you and I are looking into each other's eyes with such deep respect and love that that's the way it should be.

Steve Alessi [00:29:28]:
It is.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:29:28]:
Because there's so much that we can accomplish together and looking, being judgmental of people without knowing, hating somebody without knowing them is just not the way of Jesus, it's not the way of the jewish people, it's not the way of the muslim world. And Mohammed, I would venture to say that we all share those deep core values that we've spoken about.

Steve Alessi [00:29:55]:
Yeah.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:29:55]:
So let's get back to them. Let's make sure that we don't veer off that course. Because as I was alluding to before, I don't know whether we always know when we are treading going off that course. Yeah, but we can return. In our jewish tradition, when we get to the high holy days, we talk about teshuva, that we all have the potential to return to the essence of who we are and who we are meant to be in this world. And we have to see the other as having that potential no matter what. Because we're all made by Salem Elohim in the image of God. All of us.

Steve Alessi [00:30:33]:
Yes. Love that.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:30:35]:
And that we can see that humanity and that love in each other, despite what your politics are or despite where we differ. But there's a deep sense of connection that we have. And it started with a rough beginning. But look at the potential and look how far we've come on this journey.

Steve Alessi [00:30:57]:
Well, thank you. This was fun. I appreciate your time, appreciate your heart, appreciate you coming up here and just being in our world. Your pursuit as a rabbi to just be willing to step over into this world means a lot to me because I have some other rabbi friends that just. They're not willing yet.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:31:23]:
Well, we're going to inspire others to step up.

Steve Alessi [00:31:27]:
We are.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:31:27]:
And to maybe tread where it's less than comfortable. And that means even dialoguing where it's less than comfortable because it pushes us to expand our capabilities. That's where we grow. It's not where we're comfortable.

Steve Alessi [00:31:41]:
Your training as a rabbi, you more or less, over the years, the rabbi, they learn by arguing. Oh, they learn by debating. That's not. And, you know, on our end, it's like, oh, you gotta listen to me. I've got the word on this. And if somebody argues with you back or has a funny, oh, no. Oh, they're rebellious. No, you guys get in there, you hammer it out.

Steve Alessi [00:32:05]:
Boom.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:32:06]:
See, my sleeves are rolled up. There you go. There's a difference between a house of study and a library. A library. You can't make a sound. You're tiptoeing. Someone cracks a bottle or a can, like, oh, in a house of study, if there is not people jumping up and talking and debating with that energy, but there's civil discourse and there's respect. It's not trying to speak above somebody.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:32:35]:
It's not denigrating anybody. There's a difference. And that's what we need to get back to that I think we've lost sight of in our community and in our nation and in the world in which we live.

Steve Alessi [00:32:47]:
Well, we're starting something.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:32:49]:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi [00:32:49]:
Step two, we're here making some noise, and we'll follow this up. We'll have our board meeting this week. We'll be in another environment and we'll be able to give an update of what we've trying to accomplish and believing that more people will join us in.

Rabbi Robyn Fisher [00:33:05]:
I'm so grateful for you. Thank you so much. And I'm blessed to be here. I hope that I will come back again and we'll get to play and dialogue and work towards making this world a little bit better.

Steve Alessi [00:33:16]:
We got to. We got to. So thank you for joining us today on the family business with the Alessis, because I've enjoyed having a new friend that Mary and I have grown to appreciate, Rabbi Robin Fisher. And listen, have the dialogue, have the conversation with your people. Get the word out. We bless Israel and we pray for the conflict and the war. We pray for the region. We want peace, the peace of Israel and Jerusalem.

Steve Alessi [00:33:44]:
Thank you for joining us today.

Chris Alessi [00:33:46]:
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