Women's Wisdom: Intimacy, Dating and What Men Actually Think with Daniele Hage | S7 E10

Mary Alessi:
There's so many young women in today's culture and society. Women have just believed the feminist movement garbage and the messaging out there that everything has to be fair. We are not wired the same. Welcome to another episode of the Family Business podcast with the Alessis. I am Mary Alessi, and we have such an incredible opportunity to come to you every single week with a new topic, and sometimes we have new guests. And today we have the privilege of having a lifelong friend of mine in the podcast booth, Danielle Hage. She is our guest today, and she is the wife of Steve Hage. And quite frankly, she and Steve have been our close friends for over 30 years.

Mary Alessi:
So we have a lot of history together. A lot of history. But I love Daniel and Danielle. Welcome to our podcast.

Danielle Hage:
Thank you. I am just completely honored to be here. So much fun doing this with you.

Mary Alessi:
It is fun. And I said to you earlier, this is a conversation, because we've had a lot of really juicy conversations over the years, and I've learned so much from you, Danielle. I really, really have in the area of men, the stages of men, even in raising my own son. A lot of the teachings that you offer and really the things that you've learned along the way, you've talked to the ladies of our church, and it's been some of, I'd say, in the top three most in demand conversations and topics that our women ask for. Where's Daniel? When's she coming back? Oh, my gosh. It changed my life and changed my marriage. It changed the way that I see my son or my young husband or my fiance or the guy I'm dating that won't get married. Man, has it been just a game changer for so many of the women in our church? So I wanted to just invite you on and bring everybody into the patio, where usually it's where we talk.

Mary Alessi:
When you come to Miami, we sit outside and talk and just bring them into that conversation. Because you are so inept, in order to not only have knowledge about the stages of men, what men need, what they respond to from women, but also you have a Instagram page, a social media following that is exploding, a podcast that is exploding. Tell us a little bit about that before we jump into the Hot topics.

Danielle Hage:
Okay, well, probably it's been about 18 months now. Eighteen months ago, my son, who lives in Dallas, I'm in California, called me up one day out of the blue and just said, mom, we need to start a podcast. And I said, really? And he goes, yeah. He goes, you know, you have good Information, but you need a platform because, you know, during the pandemic we shut out our church. My husband and I pastor church like Steve and Mary, but we shut it down and we started, you know, just having church out of the home. And so I wasn't running my seminars and everything. And he just said, you know, we need to do this. And I said, well, I don't know how to do that.

Danielle Hage:
And he said, I know you're going to fly every month to Dallas and I'm going to build a studio and we're going to record and I'll run it and I'll run your social media and I'll do all the techie stuff. He goes, you just come with the content. And I said, sounds good to me. I get to see my family and my grandchildren and how fun that I get to talk about what I love talking about. So we've been doing it for 18 months and we didn't really know what to expect and it just kind of blew up really fast.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah, it has blown up.

Danielle Hage:
It surprised all of us. But what we realize is that everybody wants to learn about relationships. Yeah, everybody wants to make their relationships good. Everybody wants long lasting love. Everybody wants to stay married and not divorce. Most people anyway. And so I think people are just interested in learning what they don't know to keep a marriage together. And my husband and I, I mean, we don't have a perfect marriage, but we just celebrated 44 years and we are happy.

Danielle Hage:
We're happily married. Yeah, we're married by the skin of our teeth, but we actually still like each other.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Danielle Hage:
So I feel like I have a lot of experience in, you know, just being married. And we've raised three adult children, I have six grandkids. And we're just in a new phase, a new chapter of our lives, but having a blast.

Mary Alessi:
Well, it's so incredibly cool to watch what's happening with your following exploding. And I know you have a lot of men that follow you. We talked about this. We were together recently and you have a lot of men that follow you. And we know we're in a dry season, I think for men in the area of their confidence and their security and who they are and the role that they play because our culture is so anti men. Right. And then we have, I don't know if you saw recently the high statistic of it's the highest it's ever been of single people that they're just staying single and.

Danielle Hage:
Right.

Mary Alessi:
But anyway, that we're going to get into that why that is what's going on. I want to pick your brain, but I want to tell you something that I don't think I've ever said out loud and I've never said it. And Alan, our producer's in the room. He's a man. Get over it. You'll be fine. Okay. Because I'm just going to say what I'm going to say.

Mary Alessi:
All right. I'm going to say it because I know it's going to help a lot of the young wives out there. It's going to help a lot of the women who've been married. But in the area of sex. Okay. Within the confines of marriage, I just want you to know that over the years, you have helped me in ways. I mean, it's not like we've sat around and talked a whole lot about it, but because you have been relaxed about it, you've had a very healthy approach to married sex. And what needs to happen in the bedroom.

Mary Alessi:
It's really allowed me, as a stuffy pastor's wife, what you can talk about, what you can't talk about. Relax in that area. And it's made things better between me and Steve over the years. Because the truth is, the reality is nobody wants to talk about it. It's uncomfortable. But it's the one thing that couples need to get on the same page about.

Danielle Hage:
Yeah. And especially in the church, for some reason people think.

Mary Alessi:
Especially.

Danielle Hage:
Right. Yeah. And it's. And it's dirty and nasty. And that's exactly what the devil wants us to believe about sex.

Mary Alessi:
Right.

Danielle Hage:
Which. It's a beautiful gift from God.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Danielle Hage:
But yes. Anything good from God. Of course the enemy and the world wants to pervert and make dirty and nasty.

Mary Alessi:
That's right.

Danielle Hage:
Sex in and of itself is a beautiful gift from God if you use it.

Mary Alessi:
Right.

Danielle Hage:
Right. In the context of marriage, where it's safe.

Mary Alessi:
That's right.

Danielle Hage:
So. And I grew up in a household where we didn't talk about sex. So I knew I could never ask questions because I thought I'd be in trouble if my parents knew I was even interested in knowing anything about sex. Which is very. It's as little kids, you know, you hear things that other kids are saying and you do have questions. It's a curious topic. But if nobody's willing to talk to you about it. No.

Danielle Hage:
Ad then you're going to learn from kids. And what the heck do kids know?

Mary Alessi:
Zero.

Danielle Hage:
And I had to learn from my friends and I didn't learn the right things.

Mary Alessi:
Right.

Danielle Hage:
So I. When Steve And I had children. I said, I want our kids to build, to come to us and not be afraid to talk to us about anything and everything. I want to create an environment in our home where it's safe and they're not in trouble. They're not going to be judged or, or punished because they have a question about what? About real life things, about their bodies, how their bodies work, how we were created and designed to work, and especially when it comes to sex. And so we just created that environment. So we've always talked very openly and very freely about it with our kids as they became teenagers. We didn't tell them what they didn't need to know.

Danielle Hage:
We told them what they needed to know at the stage that they were at, which was what, what, what was appropriate for their stage.

Mary Alessi:
Right.

Danielle Hage:
And what I learned was you only ask answer questions that they ask. Yeah. You don't have to go into too much detail because they're children. You answer the questions they ask and you answer them truthfully. And then if they want more details, you know, as they get older, let them ask.

Mary Alessi:
That's right. Yeah.

Danielle Hage:
Give them, you know, spoon feed them what is age appropriate, basically.

Mary Alessi:
I love that.

Danielle Hage:
Grew up with a healthy view on sex.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah, absolutely. And I will say, based on our conversations over the years, we really adopted that as well. That my mom and dad believed, and I think it was the church believed it too, that if you talked about it to your kids, it was going to make them want to go do it. Well, the opposite was true. We didn't know what we were doing. Don't let your kids fall into that. And I know this isn't just the podcast to talk about sex. We're gonna talk about a few things, but I didn't want to miss out on an opportunity to say that because we definitely need to hit that topic more.

Mary Alessi:
And I'll tell you why. We still have young women that are now in their 30s and they never really dated and they're virgins. But here's another hot topic. Even in the Christian world, they more and more are turning to pornography. And then there's a lot of shame with that. And then the introduction to sex is through the lens of pornography, not just for young men, but for young women. And then that young that's into pornography because she's a virgin, she's never had a boyfriend, which is at an all time high. Daniel.

Mary Alessi:
She thinks she's the only one. She doesn't realize it's across the board, a big problem these days, even with young women. So I want to kind of champion the cause of taking that shame away from it. Not that that's something that I don't think anybody feels good if they spend too much time watching pornography. You don't. It leads you down the wrong road. It sets you up for lies and secrecy. Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
Which is not what sex is. It's a partnership. It's with the person you love. But anyway, that is one of the things I wanted to just quickly touch on from helping our listeners understand that they are not alone in this area, that even you and I, over the years, you've helped me be more open in this area to give a healthy balance to our kids and even quite frankly, myself, that it's okay, you're not going to die and go to hell. If you, if you talk about healthy sex, you know, it's. And you guess what? Most men are thrilled to know that their wives are talking about it.

Danielle Hage:
Yes. Especially talking about it with them.

Mary Alessi:
Especially.

Danielle Hage:
They love that topic, the topic of sex.

Mary Alessi:
They do. It's certainly not something that I've never had. Steve go, what do you mean? What, what are you talking about that for? Talk about that. He'll go, wait, what did you learn? What'd you talk about? Yeah, what are you thinking? You know, and the truth is they're a little bit more healthy towards. I think women just hide it. There's a lot more fear. There's a lot more misnomers about sex for women. There's.

Mary Alessi:
There's a lot more shame in it.

Danielle Hage:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
So we definitely, even on our podcast, we want to dive into that subject more, Steve and I, because we see a huge need for that to address the area of what healthy sex is and what you should not be ashamed of. And like you said, talking about it to your kids when it's age appropriate and let them ask questions. And I don't think I ever told you this, but, you know, Stephanie and Rochelle both got married within four months of each other. And I wanted to sit them down. I took them to the gynecologist for the first time. Both of them, my daughter in law and my daughter. So I went. They got their first checkups.

Mary Alessi:
I'm like, this is crazy. I can't believe I'm here. What should I do? How much do they know? How much do they not know? And Danielle, I was shocked at, and I'm not going to get into it on this podcast, but I was shocked at the lack of knowledge in the area of just healthy sex. And I was so grateful that before either one of Them got married, that we were able to have a conversation. And you know what I did? I brought Gabby and Lauren in. I said, if I'm going to have it with them, I'm going to have this conversation with all of us, and we're going to talk about it. And I walked away going, all right. I'm a little weirded out by what I just did, but I know I'm setting them up for success.

Danielle Hage:
Yeah. And in a way, it's great that they didn't have that much knowledge because it just shows that, you know, they're. They're a little naive in that area, but very pure in that area, which is wonderful. Wonderful going into marriage with that purity. I mean, most men don't want a woman that's really experienced Right. When it comes to sex, because that means she's already been having a lot of sex. And most men want a virgin or want a girl that they can teach. And I, you know, people say, you know, around the area of sex, well, you have to take them for a text drive, a test drive.

Danielle Hage:
Number one, women in our cars.

Mary Alessi:
That's right.

Danielle Hage:
And you learn together how to have sex.

Mary Alessi:
That's right.

Danielle Hage:
I mean, Steve and I had very, very little experience. We got married young, and I had a little bit of experience. He had a very little, very little bit of experience. But we learned together about our bodies, about each other's bodies. And you know what? There's so many great books.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Danielle Hage:
That are not pornography, that teach, especially women, because our bodies a little. Are a little more complicated than men. You know, our. Everything's inside. We can't see everything.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah, man.

Danielle Hage:
It's just right up there turned on. But not so easy to know if a woman is.

Mary Alessi:
No, it's true.

Danielle Hage:
So we had. I had to learn about my body, you know, and some. Some things you learn in health, client health class, biology, you know, class. But. But not a lot. And so when I became a Christian and then got married, I found books. Like, I think there was a book called the Joy of Sex.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Danielle Hage:
And I was like, oh, my gosh. This is written about Christian. Written by Christians for Christians. I thought, how wonderful, because again, we. We have been taught to carry shame when it comes to the taboo topic of sex. But here it was like a godly thing, a pure thing, a Christian thing, that we could learn all about it together. And my husband, I read those books together. And.

Danielle Hage:
And the older I got, the more I talked to other women about it and the more conversations and learned from one another. What. What's okay. What isn't? You know, the Bible says the marriage bed is undefiled.

Mary Alessi:
Right.

Danielle Hage:
So whatever you both agree on, and I always tell people, if, or especially men, if there's something that is scary for your wife or something she is not into or not in agreement with, you don't get to do it. Sorry. And anyway, we could go on and on. I don't know.

Mary Alessi:
Well, listen, it's definitely a hot topic. It's definitely something that women need to hear at any age and every age. But I like that last comment you made. I think that is definitely a confusion in marriages. Like, what does that mean the marriage bed is undefiled? And you answered that well, you have to agree on that.

Danielle Hage:
Right.

Mary Alessi:
Something else I wanted to talk to you about that I've learned a lot from you in the stages of men. And understanding men is what men really need from their wives. And one of the best things, and we talk about it all the time on this podcast, is that men, the stages of men are he will eventually become a king. And how kings survey their castles and then they need a few minutes at the end of the day to settle down. But women will eventually become queens. And how women can set a man up to be a king if she behaves like a queen. And I will say that is not an easy journey because I can tell you I did not and still don't always act like a queen. I have my days.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah, well, I don't know who I am. I can't think of anybody right now. But I mean, it's not queen behavior.

Danielle Hage:
Yeah. Yeah, well, you know, we're all growing and we continue to grow. And there's. When you are growing that causes you to stretch and sometimes strain and it's painful, you know, growing pains. Growth hurts sometimes, but it's good because when, when there's growth, it just means you're alive. If you're not growing, you're dead. Like evolving, stopped growing. Something's wrong.

Danielle Hage:
Right?

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Danielle Hage:
So. So we all are learning as, as we go in the process and we all go through different stages in our life. And so for men, you know, like, I like to start it out with, you know, I use, this is how I was taught about the stages of men that I use the titles a page, a knight, a prince, a king and an elder.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Danielle Hage:
And a page is, you know, when their little boys are born and all the way up to puberty, which is about 11, 11 years old. And all of these stages kind of cross over age wise, depending on the man. But A page is the little boy that's just rambunctious. And oh, and at all of these stages, women make certain mistakes with men at these stages. So it's good to know and to understand what stage like your son is in, what stage your boyfriend is in, what stage your fiance is in, what stage your husband is in so that you can know what to expect and what you can never expect from them.

Mary Alessi:
Right.

Danielle Hage:
And then not maybe make some of this common mistakes that women make when men are going through these stages. Because if we understand where they're at, then you'd go, oh, okay, so that's not personal to me.

Mary Alessi:
Right?

Danielle Hage:
That's just the stage he's in. Like, like a page. A little boy who's not interested in hygiene. He is. All he is interested is, is in playing and conquering and testing himself and jumping off walls and fences and couches and swinging from chandeliers, seeing how far he can go. And this scares moms. And they think, you know, if I was a better mom, yeah, then he wouldn't be so rambunctious, right? If I was mom, he'd be more sensitive. No, he's a boy.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah, that's right.

Danielle Hage:
Let him be a boy. If I was a better mom, he'd mind his manners. He'd keep his face clean, he'd comb his hair. Nope, he's a boy. He does not care about his hair being combed.

Mary Alessi:
That's it.

Danielle Hage:
Or manners at this stage. And so just enjoy them. When you tell a page, you know, settle down, control yourself, mind your manners. All that says to him is restraint, restraint, suppress. Suppress. Yeah, that's not fun.

Mary Alessi:
No, that's not fun.

Danielle Hage:
But, but so, so if you as a mom know, okay, I'm raising a page. This is the stage he's in. And let him be, let him be in that stage until he reaches puberty because it's going to change once he reaches puberty. Then he becomes a knight. And a knight can go all the way into early 30s, from 11 years old into early 30s, every man, even 50 year olds have a little bit of night in them. And the night is the stage where they're all about adventure, all about fun, all about, you know, where, what's my next adventure? And they, there are a lot of fun nights and they're kind of sexy because they're, because they're so much fun. And this is usually the dating age, right? In, you know, the late teens, early 20s, where they're, where they are. Girls are becoming interested in the night.

Mary Alessi:
That's Right.

Danielle Hage:
But the knight isn't that interested. He's interested in girls and especially their appearance, but he's not interested in commitment.

Mary Alessi:
Right.

Danielle Hage:
Because he's in the having fun and the adventure stage of life. And so a lot of times, what the mistake that women make with knights is they want them to commit. Because girls are always ready to commit before guys, right?

Mary Alessi:
That's right.

Danielle Hage:
Girls in their 20s, in college are starting to think about commitment now. And the night is nowhere near thinking marriage and commitment. And so he'll date a girl that's fun, that he has fun with, that will go on adventures with him, but he's not thinking commitment. And so Girls in their 20s just need to be aware that if you're dating a night, you're going to have fun, but don't be trying to pin him down. And you'll hear girls say things like. Or he'll say, I'm not ready. I'm not ready to commit because there's still so many things I want to do. And a girl will say, oh, you could still do everything you want to do after marriage.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Danielle Hage:
And that's just not true.

Mary Alessi:
No, it's not true. It's not true. It's not true.

Danielle Hage:
Because then after marriage, she thinks, I have found my protector, my provider. I've locked him down. Now his time becomes my time.

Mary Alessi:
That's right.

Danielle Hage:
And she begins to monitor how he's protects and provides for her. And. And young guys have seen it in their parents. They've seen watch their mom control their dad's time. There you go. And they're thinking, I'm not ready for that yet. I still want to play. I still want to have fun.

Mary Alessi:
And I want to interject here, because I don't know if you remember this, but there were two young ladies that were there several years ago when you taught this. Both of them were dating knights. They're two years older than these young men they were dating. The girls were two years older and they wanted to get married, and they were feeling the pressure. And when they came to the seminar and you taught on this, they both. It was so cute. They were like, oh, my gosh, I didn't realize it's not me. He loves me, but he's not ready.

Mary Alessi:
And now I will say it caused both of them to back up and say, we'll date for seven years if we need to. I'm not going to put pressure on you. Both of those girls have married those guys and they have babies together. But that was a tipping point, because here's what happens to Neil. And you know this. All your girlfriends tell you, girl, if he's not for you, if he's not ready, if he's not, he has a commitment issue. And instead of saying commitment phobic.

Danielle Hage:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
And maybe, yes, that is a problem. We know that's out there for sure. But that's not always the case. And if you're gonna marry a young man in his young 20s or you're gonna date him, you know, you taught that take the pressure off a little bit. And both those girls in real time. I'm talking about real life. Real life story heard you talk about that. And they backed up, quit asking for ring by spring, and just said, okay, he's not ready, but when he is, I want it to be me.

Mary Alessi:
And. And it worked. It worked well.

Danielle Hage:
And they had the choice. They could either say, okay, then I'm not waiting around until he gets ready. I'm going to date another guy, or I'm going to support him in getting everything done that he wants to do.

Mary Alessi:
That's right.

Danielle Hage:
And maybe it was that they needed to have a solid job, or maybe they needed their degree, or maybe they. Whatever their reasons for. Like I always tell women, if he's, you know, for a man, regardless of how he feels about you, his readiness is a state of mind. And so you can say, you can ask him the question, what is it that you need to be in place for you to be ready for that, for a marriage commitment?

Mary Alessi:
Oh, that's a great question.

Danielle Hage:
Keep your mouth shut and listen. Listen to what he says.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Danielle Hage:
And if he starts listing things, you get to decide, can I support him in that? And if you can't, if you feel like, oh, no, that's gonna take seven more years, I'm not waiting around.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah, okay, you get to decide. That's right.

Danielle Hage:
You don't have to wait. But a lot of times, you know, guys will say, this is the one I want, but the time is wrong.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Danielle Hage:
And so sadly, they'll let the girl go and she'll walk away, and they'll be sad about it because, like, she's the one, but the timing's wrong. And sadly, a lot of girls will marry because the time is right, but it's not the right guy. So this guy wants to marry me now. He's not really the one I'm in love with, but he wants to marry me now. And that's not good either.

Mary Alessi:
No.

Danielle Hage:
And that's why I think sometimes down the road, two years later, you go, I don't even like this person. But the time was right because my biological clock is ticking and I put.

Mary Alessi:
Myself under this pressure.

Danielle Hage:
Yes. It requires some patience. And the best thing for those girls is they realized it wasn't personal to them.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Danielle Hage:
Those two girls that they weren't, the guys weren't ready. And that's what girls, they take a hit to their self esteem. When a guy says I'm not ready, they think there's something wrong with me. And it's not that, it's just the timing. It's the timing.

Mary Alessi:
It's the timing. And they don't know how to communicate with a knight. Right. And what do they know? They're, they're trying to even figure themselves out. So then moving along this stages of men the next after night is, becomes the prince. The prince.

Danielle Hage:
So and, and the prince phase hits and again it can be anywhere in their mid-20s, into their 30s. You know, there's some men that are late bloomers and the prince stage, you know, they're in the print stage when they have decided where they want to build their castle.

Mary Alessi:
Yes.

Danielle Hage:
Where like okay, this is what I decided. I want to go to school because I want to be a doctor. I want to be an astronaut, or I want to be a plumber, or I want to be a school teacher, whatever it is. So once they've decided, okay, this is where I'm headed. And here's the thing for women to know too. If a man doesn't know where he's going, he doesn't know what kind of partner to take with him. Are you going to be the right support, the right companion?

Mary Alessi:
Yes.

Danielle Hage:
That he needs to take. So I will say to men, you know something that is very attractive is a man with a plan.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Danielle Hage:
A man who knows where he's headed, he has a pretty good idea of his purse, his purpose, his passion in life. And then he will know what kind of companion he needs to take with him. So for girls, just know if he doesn't know where he's going, he hasn't quite decided what he wants to do in life, where he wants to build his kingdom. Let him figure that out. And once he decides, okay, now I got it, here's the direction I'm going. Then he starts in on that, on that conquest. And for a woman, a lot of times, even if he's dating, because he might be dating you during that time, but he, he has to be pretty certain where he's headed. And she might think, well, how long are we just going to date? When's it going to pop the question.

Danielle Hage:
Remember, a man isn't going to take on anything that he knows he can't be good at. So right now he's dating. He can be a nice date. But even going to boyfriend title might scare him.

Mary Alessi:
Sure.

Danielle Hage:
Excuse me. Because boyfriend title carries a whole new set of rules.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Danielle Hage:
Right now, oh, now I gotta call her this many times a week. I gotta spend the most time with her. I gotta take her on this many dates. Or going from boyfriend title to fiance, that's a whole new set of standards or regulations. So he might not be ready for that. So you don't want to be that pushy girl that's trying to pin him down. Let him figure it out. You'll respect him more in the long run if he's able to go at his own pace and figure himself out and where he said it and what God's got for him in his life.

Danielle Hage:
So you'll know he's a prince once he figures that out. And then the prince stages long. Okay. So I was divided into early prince, middle prince, late prince. So he's going now he's decided his direction. Middle prince is where now he's maybe he has finished school, got his degree, now he's going to work and he's working hard. And this is the longest stage of a man's life. The middle prince years usually go for about 10 years.

Danielle Hage:
And now this is where he is building. He's becoming. He's a little unsure of himself because he's new at this. He's just building and becoming and he knows he's headed toward that king stage and he sees the older men around him that are successful and that's where he's headed. But he's not there yet. So he's a little unsure of himself, maybe doesn't have a lot of confidence. And then he will eventually, after he's spent 10 years in his field and feels like now he's got money in the bank, he's feeling more secure about himself. He becomes this mid.

Danielle Hage:
Our late prince where now he might at this stage start thinking about taking a wife. See, some men want to build their castle and then move the queen in.

Mary Alessi:
Yep.

Danielle Hage:
They get married later in life.

Mary Alessi:
That's right.

Danielle Hage:
But other, other guys want a mate, a companion to build the kingdom with. My husband and I got married young. My husband, he knew exactly where he was headed. He knew it was going to be full time ministry and he decided he wanted to take me with him and we built together along the way. But I know a lot of men don't get married until their 40s, late 40s, even early 50s, because they are so business oriented and so single, focused on building their castle. And then one day at. In the late prince phase, they look up because now they're feeling confident, they've got some accomplishments under their belt, and now they're starting to go, what else is there to life? Yeah, you know, maybe I want to travel a little bit. You know, they're build their business or whatever, and then that's when they move into the king stage.

Danielle Hage:
And there's one part it's not really a stage. We call it the tunnel phase. Not every man goes through the tunnel, but for some men, before becoming a king, they will go through the tunnel where they start to look up after all these years of hard work and go, have I done everything I wanted to do? Have I accomplished? Have I the things I dreamt about as a knight? Did I do it? Am I okay with who I am and where I'm at at this stage? And this might be a married man who now is coming into his 50s, and maybe he didn't become the astronaut that he thought he was going to become, or he didn't become the firefighter that he always wanted to be as a little boy, or he didn't become that rock star he realized he.

Mary Alessi:
Or make the money or have the financial security that he was convinced and promised his wife he'd have.

Danielle Hage:
Right.

Mary Alessi:
Tough.

Danielle Hage:
And so those men, they start, they could go into this slippery slope of that dark time. And some people will call it a midlife crisis, some will call it a dark night of the soul. But it's a place for a man where he starts doubting himself and asking all the questions and wondering, am I okay with what I've accomplished? Am I okay with. And is it okay that I didn't maybe meet or be, you know, reach the dream? Is that okay? Am I okay with who I am now? And mistakes that a woman makes at this stage is, we want to fix them. Yeah, we want to. We start asking questions or answering questions that nobody's answering. We start wanting to push them into doing something they're not ready to do. It makes us nervous.

Danielle Hage:
We get a little nervous thinking, oh, my God, are they going through a midlife crisis? Are they going to leave me? And some men do. Some men leave their wives after 20 years when they go through those stages because they're. They're doubting themselves and they need validation. And the younger girl brings them validation.

Mary Alessi:
We saw that recently play out even in churchdom. We've seen that with a 70 year old pastor who was in a relationship with a 20 something year old girl and he's had to step down and it's been a devastating blow to the people in his community. And my first thought was he went through the tunnel late. But he had to have gone through the tunnel probably and just needed validation. He needed validation.

Danielle Hage:
And that's usually why men will cheat or go for a younger woman. Somehow they feel like that validates them, brings, makes them feel young and still wanted and desired. Yes and yes. Yeah. And it's.

Mary Alessi:
Well, I remember something that helped me a lot in the stages of that middle prince with Steve is I can remember days where we were building the church but I was home with the kids more because couldn't afford daycare. So he was building the church and for him to leave at the, leave the house at 7:30 to get to the church that we were renting, to be in the office and build our church and then not get home till 7 o'clock at night. Oh, I just remember how frustrated that would make me. Like, are you coming home? And of course I had to beep him. We didn't have cell phones. Are you coming home? Are you coming home? I've got dinner. And it would be a bone of contention for me because he was just so into the church. And of course, you know, you fall into that stupid system that women fall into that pattern of do you love that more than you love me? Well, here's the reality.

Mary Alessi:
It's not about love, it's about their attention and what they're building. And you said something. When men are in that middle prince, they've got their heads down. Yeah, they love you, but everything they're doing is for you in their minds. It's for you, it's for your security. We're building something and they're not always good at. A man's never going to come home and say, babe, I know I worked a little bit too late, but let me, honey, baby, let me explain to you what my dream. Men aren't going to talk like that.

Danielle Hage:
Right.

Mary Alessi:
And we just have to be secure.

Danielle Hage:
Yes, yes. And I always tell women when they're at that stage and I remember going through it with my husband and those he. For 10 years in a row. In a row. In a. Yes. For 10 years in a row he traveled 49 weekends out of the year.

Mary Alessi:
Wow.

Danielle Hage:
For 10 years in a row. That was his middle print stage. And I remember there was a lot of contention because I would be like, you know, how much is enough? And I know you make good money, but like, what about us? What about the family? But I, during those years, I thank God I had learned this information at that time, I had to realize it's not personal to me. He's not trying to stay away from me.

Mary Alessi:
Right.

Danielle Hage:
But women think that's more important to him than the family. It's more important to him than me. He is trying to provide. And these are the years. And men, when they're young, that's where they're shouldering the burden. That's when they're going to work the hardest they're ever going to work for good reason. They need to be working hard because they're not going to have the energy when they get older. So this is the time where they're building.

Danielle Hage:
And our best. The best thing a woman can do is ask him, what does me supporting you look like during this time? I want to be a support. Because that woman, he's going to want to come home to her.

Mary Alessi:
You better believe it.

Danielle Hage:
Come to the griping, naggy, critical, unhappy woman. He's going to find reasons to stay at the office.

Mary Alessi:
That's right.

Danielle Hage:
He doesn't want to come home to that.

Mary Alessi:
No.

Danielle Hage:
He, like he's out there fighting a battle. He doesn't want to come home and fight another battle.

Mary Alessi:
No.

Danielle Hage:
But if you can make home a place of peace and comfort and nurturing, which is what he craves after fighting that battle, he's going to love being home. So. And I had to learn that. And it was hard. Those were hard years. Yes, I remember. And I would go with him every now and then. I'd send the kids one by one just to keep that connection.

Danielle Hage:
And he was more than happy to take them when he could, but he couldn't always. And even. And more than happy to take me with him when he could. And I remember one time we're on a plane and I thought, this is my moment. This is where I'm going to bring out the list of all the things that aren't working. And I remember him looking at me and he said, I am never bringing you with me again. And I just stopped and I went, but I thought, he can't get away. We're on a plane.

Mary Alessi:
Yes, I can say what I want to say.

Danielle Hage:
Yes. But then I realized, I thought, here I am taking our time together, travel together. Yes, it's going to be business, but we're also going to have some pleasurable time. And I'm going to wreck it by telling him everything, everything that's wrong. This is not good timing. And when he said, I'm never bringing you with me again, because I wanted to go, I was like, ooh, that spoke to me and I had to shut my mouth. And so, so I walked through it. I know how those women are feeling when their men are in that, that phase.

Danielle Hage:
And it's not easy. But again, you. He's providing for you, and he was providing so you could stay at home and raise your kids. So that I could stay home and raise my kids. I didn't want to farm my kids out to daycare and to nannies. No, I wanted to be the one to raise them. So I chose to stay home. And that meant he had to work really hard.

Mary Alessi:
That's it. And wanted to, because that's the man he is. And we both married very strong men. And. But I, you know, I want to say this. You know, after all the years that we've been wives and we've been in ministry and we've done this, been married to very high level men, very passionate, very intense, and we've shared that along the way and it's been therapy. But it's so funny because when I look back over my young wife life, I always think, why did I naturally default to the naggy, insecure, why aren't you here, wife? Why didn't I have the wherewithal to say, you know what? I'm going to make you miss me so bad. I'm going to create an environment at home that you're going to go, I don't want to go.

Mary Alessi:
I don't want to go. And I'm at the door going, babe, here's your suitcase. You have to. This is your job. Why didn't I do that? Because that does come back around. When you relax and let your husband do what he's called to do and you trust him and you respect him like he needs you will naturally come to that place. I just wish I had come to that place sooner because, man, the benefits, the benefits are just off the charts. Because we just did a podcast yesterday that Steve and I were in the booth and we were laughing because all he talks about is, Mary, I'm obsessed with you.

Mary Alessi:
And I'm not bragging. This is not bragging. He has not always been obsessed with me. Okay? That has not been the case. This is a new thing, Danielle. This is brand new. But I think because I have really just kind of flipped the script and I have decided to be, I'M gonna be the queen. How does the queen.

Mary Alessi:
How do queens behave? She's not desperate. She's not mad all the time. She's not always looking for an opportunity. The minute you walk in the door, have a seat, I'm ticked off. And you're gonna hear it because. Enough already. Whether I'm right or wrong, I just have decided I'm not gonna. I don't wanna spend my energy in that.

Mary Alessi:
I just don't.

Danielle Hage:
Well, and I think when we were younger, too, because I was so concerned, because you hear the horror stories, you know, about men that travel.

Mary Alessi:
Yes.

Danielle Hage:
And men in ministry and how women throw themselves. It's like men in ministry that are on stage are like rock stars. Women throw themselves at them. So I was nervous about that, and I heard too many stories, and I didn't want to end up one of those statistics, but I had to. So I was always trying to make our relationship better and make sure we're connected and. But almost overkill, where it was driving him away. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was always trying to fix it.

Danielle Hage:
And I remember having to just take a step back and relax. And I think that comes as we grow and become more confident in the women that we are and realize that I don't always. You know, we kind of look at men a lot of times, and we look at them as our to do list. It's like the feminine energy in us is to enhance, to beautify, to fix up, to support. So we're always, you know, we look at our kids and we see a to do list. We look at the house and we see a to do list. We look at the office and see a to do list. Well, men don't want to be on our to do list.

Mary Alessi:
That's right. That's exactly right.

Danielle Hage:
And so if it. And I had to learn that, too, that if I come home and I'm the pretty, attractive, soft, sweet, nurturing, that he'll naturally gravitate. Men naturally gravitate toward that if he's. If they're winning with us, Men will gravitate toward people, places and things where they're winning. If they're always getting an F when they're at home, but they get an A at the office.

Mary Alessi:
That's right. They're going to gravitate toward that. But what you just said is going to irritate so many young women. You know this because they don't believe that that's fair, that they should be the soft, the sweet. If I'm mad, I'm mad. If I'm. If I'm upset with him and I'm aggressive, too bad, take it. Because I'm the.

Mary Alessi:
You know, I'm always on the low end. I always get the short straw. I'm not going to put up with this anymore. And there's so many young women in today's culture and society, women have just believed the feminist movement garbage and the messaging out there that everything has to be fair. We are not wired the same. We don't need the same things. We need different things. And I notice that if I meet aggression with aggression, with my husband, it's three days.

Mary Alessi:
I mean, it's World War Three. But if I. Here's the thing. Why is it so bad to be the one that. That submits and softens? Why is that so bad to be the one that creates an atmosphere that makes the husband feel welcome?

Danielle Hage:
Why is that bad? Right.

Mary Alessi:
I don't understand.

Danielle Hage:
I think. I don't think it's good to hold things in if, like, if you're angry and you're. I'm not saying if you're angry or you have a bone to pick, you. You suppress it, you hold against.

Mary Alessi:
Right?

Danielle Hage:
No, I'm not saying that. But we do. We can learn to communicate in a way that a man can hear us, Right? So if you're being critical, naggy, judgy, condemning, you're bad, you're bad, you're bad. You're wrong. I'm right. They're going to be la, la, la, la. Who wants to wear that?

Mary Alessi:
Oh, yeah. Ask us how we know, right?

Danielle Hage:
But if you've done it in a way, in an Antonio voice that is loving and kind. I mean, I say everything on my mind. I say everything that I feel, too. I'm not good at holding stuff.

Mary Alessi:
Yes.

Danielle Hage:
But I've had to learn to do it in a way where. Like this. Okay. Honey, I think you're awesome. I respect you. I so admire how hard you work for us, for the family. There's, you know, it's like. Like your puzzle and all the pieces fit, but there's this one little piece.

Danielle Hage:
Most of it is great. This one thing bothers me. I'm sure it's not you. It's because of me. It's my issue. But it bothers me when you. Whatever it is, I mean, think of something they don't do or that you want them to do. Anything that they're not doing that you want them to do.

Danielle Hage:
Something silly like chores around the house. Okay, let's just say something like that. Like, you don't pick up after yourself. And I feel. I'm starting to feel like I'm the maid. I'm starting to feel like, because I got the kids to pick up after, I got me to pick up after, and now I have you to pick up after. Like, when, when our kids were little and we had to get out the door, Steve would be like, let's go. Why aren't you ready? And I'd be like, because I'm getting three kids and myself ready.

Danielle Hage:
And you only had to get you ready. And, like, don't stand there at the door telling me to hurry up. Like, get in here and help me, you know? But so, so I, so I. It's like we just have to say, okay, so here's, here's when you did that action, this is how it made me feel. I'm not making you bad. I'm not trying to villainize you. This is how it made me feel. And maybe it triggered something that happened in your past.

Danielle Hage:
And you have to go back and think, where did I have that feeling before? Oh, that's why. That's right. My dad yelled at me like that. Yeah. When you raised your voice, it took me back to that little girl that was afraid of dad when he raised his voice. Don't talk to me that way. I can't handle it. Like, this is how it makes me feel.

Danielle Hage:
Now, a good man that loves his wife. Most men want their wives to be happy. Is going to go, oh, my gosh, I didn't even realize I did that.

Mary Alessi:
Yes.

Danielle Hage:
And they might even say, I didn't yell.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Danielle Hage:
And you might say, yes, you did. And he might say, okay, I didn't realize I raised my voice. But if that's how it landed on you, I am so sorry. Because your feelings are valid. And for a man to do that with a woman. Your feelings are valid.

Mary Alessi:
Yes, you felt like.

Danielle Hage:
I didn't think I yelled, but I am sorry if that's how it landed on you. That is huge for a woman. You just validated my feelings, and now I feel like you love me.

Mary Alessi:
I know it.

Danielle Hage:
I feel like I wanted to you. Thank you.

Mary Alessi:
I'm better. I just feel so good. Yes. Listen, I, I. You have the same cold that we've all had. All of us have been doing that, and it's been awful. But anyway, well, we could go on and on and for hours and hours, and we have done that in the past. We could talk about this topic.

Mary Alessi:
Oh, my gosh.

Danielle Hage:
It's almost been an hour.

Mary Alessi:
I know. It well, whatever. This will be two podcasts, but you've got to come back and be a part because there's just so many little nuances there. There's so many rabbit trails we could have taken today, but we just wanted to get on here and hit some of the highlights for people and hope they help them so. But Danielle, thank you for being such an amazing guest and for helping our listeners. I know this is going to help so many couples, young women that are waiting to get married. Give them a little bit of hope. Hold on.

Mary Alessi:
That prince is worth waiting on, so.

Danielle Hage:
That's right. It's doable.

Mary Alessi:
Thank you so much. And guys, follow Daniel. If you want more marriage advice and insight on men, follow Daniel Neilhage on Instagram, Facebook, I mean, all the places. We'll have it in our comment section so that you know where to follow her and her podcast. But I love you, girl. Thank you so much for being my guest and thank you for joining us. Oh, it was a lot of fun. Thanks for joining us for another.